基督教與現代禪的對話  訪談信佛人與深度對話  敬覆十方善知識的法談信函


基督教亞略巴古與現代禪的對話
——來自北歐的神學家和信佛人的晤談

 

(編者按)以亞略巴古總會(Areopagos)主席Dr. Knud Jørgensen為首的五位神學家,2000年11月14日在「中華信義神學院」院長俞繼斌牧師的安排下,蒞臨現代禪象山修行社區訪問。透過俞院長的介紹及翻譯,來訪的神學家與現代禪創始人信佛人即興而深入的交談;在真理之光照耀下,不同宗教背景的雙方,得坦誠分享彼此的信仰,讓在場人士留下美好印象,感動良深!
  為呈現座談實況,本篇文稿謹將對話及俞院長的現場翻譯,以中、英文兩種文字如實記錄,並分別發表在中華信義神學院和現代禪網站上。敬請熱愛真理的朋友不吝指教!

信佛人:

很歡迎!

俞院長:

李老師(信佛人)的精神看來非常好。

信佛人:

感謝主!讚美主!哈利路亞!阿們!哈利路亞跟阿們是直接英譯的嗎?用中文講「阿們」,我們這幾位貴客都聽得懂嗎?

俞院長:

聽得懂!

Rev. Harbakk(何牧師):


……哈利路亞……

信佛人:

這一位他懂中文?

俞院長:

他以前住過台灣。

何牧師:

我懂一點。

信佛人:

看到您們幾位非常的高興!

Dr. Jørgensen:

I am very happy to meet Master Li and to see all these people here. This is such a beautiful place.

俞院長譯:

我們看到李老師你們諸位這樣歡迎我們,我們真的是非常的高興,這是一個非常美的地方。

信佛人:

應該這麼講,倘若只有院長您一位或是任何一位基督教朋友來,我都已非常高興了,何況您們這麼多位一起來,我感覺像是上了天堂一樣,心情好得不得了。哈哈哈!
由於我從沒有過跟這麼多尊敬的、喜歡的、親切的基督徒弟兄──特別是從遠方來的歐洲朋友,這樣面對面的談,覺得心情非常非常的好。

俞院長:

我就先說幾句話。
尊敬的李老師、各位現代禪的同修,今天我跟我們中華信義神學院的兩位同工還有帶著五位客人來到這邊,心裡都感到非常的高興。何安石牧師(Rev. Ernst Harbakk)會幫我翻譯成丹麥文或者是挪威文。因為這是一個曾經留給我們非常美好回憶的地方,過去幾個月我們有那麼樣難得的機會,跟李老師及貴團有這樣深度的對話,也因為我們彼此之間的坦誠,建立了很難得的信任關係,彼此之間的聆聽更增進了我們很深厚的友誼,在真理的尋求上,也增進了我們對彼此的了解,為這一切我們真的是感謝上帝。再回來這裡真有如回到家的感覺,這次特別帶了從北歐來的五位朋友,謝謝李老師您撥出這麼樣的寶貴時間來接待我們。
「亞略巴古」(Areopagos)是一個很特別的名字,這是一個歷史的地名,就是新約堶悸漕炷{保羅跟希臘的雅典人他們作宗教對話的地方。Knud Jørgensen 博士就是亞略巴古會的主席,Jørgensen博士在非洲許多年,特別是在衣索比亞,他是一位神學家也是一位傳播方面的專家;在我旁邊的是何安石牧師,他曾經在台灣當過宣教士,也在台北住過好幾年;在他旁邊的這位是 Lars Nielsen,他也是丹麥一個差會的成員;在他旁邊的是 Mr. Steen Bonde,他是丹麥的一個宗教對話中心的負責人;在他旁邊的 Birger Nygaard,他是亞略巴古會負責事工跟規劃的。
今天下午實在是一個非常難得的機會,能夠在這裡見面,謝謝李老師接待我們,也請你們多多指教。

(Maybe I begin with a few words of greetings.
Honorable Master Li, and dear friends of the Modern Zen Community:
I am very pleased to bring the two co-workers of China Lutheran Seminary together with the five guests in your midst. Rev. Harbakk will assist me to translate my greetings into Danish or Norwegian. This place had left me with a beautiful memory because several months ago we had a wonderful opportunity of engaging in depth dialogue with Master Li and the MZC. Through our openness we have established a deep mutual trust; and through attentive listening a profound friendship. And in the common pursuit of truth we have enhanced our mutual understanding. For all these, I truly give thanks to God. At this second visit I feel very much like coming home. For this visit I bring with me five guests from the Scandinavia. I am very grateful to Master Li for taking your valuable time out to receive us.
Areopagos is a very special name. It was a historical place where the Apostle Paul in the New Testament engaged in religious dialogue with the Athens in Greece. Dr. Knud Jorgensen is currently the Director of Areopagos. Dr. Jørgensen had been in Africa, particularly in Ethiopia, for Many years. He is a theologian as well as an expert in communication. To My right is Rev. Ernst Harbakk. He had been a missionary who lived in Taipei for many years. Next to Rev. Harbakk is Rev. Lars Nielsen. He is a member of a Danish Mission. Next to Rev. Nielsen is Mr. Steen Bonde who is the Director of a Dialogue Center in Denmark. Next to Mr. Bonde is Rev. Birger Nygaard who is in charge of strategy and program planning in Areopagos.)

(以下是歐洲來的主內弟兄分別與信佛人的談話內容。由於俞院長精通英文和神學,且對雙方均有認識,因此全場英翻中和中翻英,全仰賴俞院長。)

Dr. Jørgensen:

We are here as the friends of the China Lutheran Seminary. We have been working together with Dr. Yu and our other friends from the China Lutheran Seminary for a number of years. So when you are friends of somebody who are your friends, I hope that makes us a little friend. (Claps!) We are very eager to create possibilities for meeting together and for talking about faith. That is the very purpose of the organization that we come from. 
And this sort of meeting and dialogue can take place in different ways. It can be the meeting of theologically scholarly people who meet to discuss truth and doctrine. It can be a meeting where we meet and talk about how we experience our faith. It can also be the normal everyday meeting where people in the community who live together, talk together about their life and their faith, simply because they are part of the same community. Dr. Yu has told us about the meeting he has had with you. And the little impression that I have is that the dialogue you have had has some of all three. 
You have met as friends who are part of the same community, part of the same society here in Taiwan. But in the midst of that, you have talked about you faith and about how you are experiencing your faith. And to me, it is important that we both are open and vulnerable when we meet. We are human beings together. Master Li and I, we smile in the same way, and we cry in the same way. And in the midst of these, let's tell one another, all because what we believe in is important to us. And because it's very important to find out what you believe in, what my neighbor believes in. So it's in that sense that we think dialogue is important, to be human beings together. 
Then I have read with great interest, the little greeting that Master Li has written as an introduction to us before we came. And there was particularly one thing that I paid attention to-- you don't think that it should be only priests, clergymen and prophets that come together and talk. There must be a room for everybody. And I can see that you are right because they are here. Now that is also more and more important within the Christian circle that we come from. That Christianity is not just something for the priests and pastors, but it's for everybody, it's for the lay people within the church. And therefore it's also for all of us to meet and get acquainted, and listen to one another and not just for some experts. So we want to thank you for receiving us all in this beautiful place. I can see there is something missing in my office at home. We want to encourage you to continue to meet and to talk and get acquainted with our friends and partners from the China Lutheran Seminary. 謝謝.

俞院長譯:

我們在這邊是以中華信義神學院的朋友的身份來到這裡,我們跟俞院長以及信義神學院的兩位研究中心的同工合作了好幾年,所以,如果信義神學院是你們的朋友的話,我們也希望能成為你們小小的朋友。我們也希望能夠有很多的機會及很多的可能性,能夠跟我們的朋友們討論信仰的事情,這就是我們協會的目標之一。
我們這樣的對話關係,可以有很多的方式,可以在神學的、在學術的層面討論信仰以及教義;我們也可以在另外一個層面,談我們彼此怎麼樣經歷我們的信仰;也可以在我們平常的社區及日常的生活當中,談我們的信仰,也談我們日常的生活。俞院長曾經跟我們分享他跟你們對話的美好經驗,我得到一點小小的印象,覺得你們兩個團體之間彼此的對談,涵蓋了剛剛三個所有的層次。
你們也在這台灣的同一個社會裡頭,你們彼此都是朋友,在朋友的基礎上你們彼此會面,也在這樣的關係裡你們曾經交換彼此對信仰的看法,還有對信仰的經歷。對我來講這種經驗是非常重要的,因為在做這樣對話的時候,都有可能會有一些傷害,但我們都是人,這些事有時候是不能夠避免的。李老師跟我們同樣的會微笑,也同樣的都會哭泣,那麼就在這樣的人性經驗當中,我們可以彼此傾訴或者對話我們所相信的,因為對我們彼此所信的是什麼,對我們彼此都非常重要。我們也非常需要知道李老師、貴團你們相信的是什麼?還有我們的鄰舍他們相信的是什麼?就是在這樣的一個意義上,我們認為對話是非常重要的,也就是說我們都彼此分享我們的人性。
在我們來之前,我們非常專注的、有興趣的拜讀李老師所寫的關於貴團的介紹。其中有一點我特別注意,你們不認為只有神職人員或是先知才能夠聚在一起、才能夠有對話。對話應該是向所有的人開放。從諸位你們都坐在這裡,我就可以看到你們真的是體現你們在這裡所說的。在我們來自基督教的圈子裡,對這樣的一個認識我們覺得越來越重要。基督教不只是為神職人員,基督教也是給一般的所有信徒。所以,這樣的對話,不只是為專家,也是為我們每一個人,讓我們都有機會彼此分享我們的信仰。所以我要特別謝謝你們在這樣美麗的地方,這樣熱誠的接待我們。來到你們這邊,我就會感覺到在我家的辦公室還缺少很多東西(眾人笑)。我們也在這裡鼓勵貴團及信義神學院能有機會多多相聚、交談、對話,謝謝!(大眾鼓掌)

信佛人:

是不是請他們幾位先為大家講話?

Mr. Bonde:

I come from Denmark and have dialogues with many different people in Denmark, including Buddhists. It has been a very big experience for me to learn that I have something to learn from people from other faiths. Other people whether Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, nonbelievers, or atheists, all live under the same conditions. So I think that the dialogue basically starts from the basis where we have the common conditions, and not from the top where we have differences. That's why it's important for me to know my neighbor, to know him or her as a human being, as a person who hopefully wants the good things in life, and good things for other people, to get to know my neighbor before we begin discussing those differences between us, the different religions we believe in, the different kind of philosophy and so on. But when that is set, I also want to go further because there're differences and we are living mostly in different positions in life. We experience life in a variety of ways, so that also makes life very exciting. We are not experiencing life the same way. 
We are looking at life from different positions, different philosophies, and different beliefs, and find it very exciting to discuss and to discern why other people believe in another way than I, why he practices another way than I. And we want to be trying not only to learn from others, but also trying to convince each other. Because what is important for me, I would also like to be important for you. And I hope that those persons I am speaking with have the same opinion, what is important for you, you should think it should also be important for me.
During the last ten years or so, some of my best friends I have made are not Christians. Because we came close to each other during our dialogues, we began facing what we are as human beings, and in which context we now believe. So I see the dialogue as a deep and meaningful way of life, which also challenges my faith. 

俞院長譯:

我是從丹麥來的,在丹麥我也跟很多不同宗教信仰的人對話,包括在丹麥的佛教徒。對我們來講,跟其他宗教的人士對話,我們發現可以向其他宗教人士學習到很多東西。不管是佛教徒也好,基督徒也好,印度教徒也好,或者是沒有任何信仰的無神論者也好,我們畢竟是生活在同一個地球上,所以這個對話的基礎是來自我們是活在同一個條件下,而不是從上而來的不同。
對我來講,我能夠了解我的鄰舍們的信仰,哪一些是我們共通、共同的地方,這個先有了,我們才能再進入談其他方面有什麼樣的不同;我們了解彼此共通、共同的地方之後,我們需要進入到彼此不同的地方。我覺得我們生活信仰有多元、不同的地方,幫助我們彼此的生活能夠更加的豐富,特別是認識對方跟我們有不同的體驗。能夠知道我的鄰舍跟我有不同的地方,讓我覺得很興奮,因為他可以從跟我不同的地方分享他的觀點、經驗,對我也是非常的重要,我也能夠把我跟他不同的地方分享,我也希望這樣的經驗對他也是重要的事情。
在我過去十年的經驗當中,有些我最好的朋友,他們都不是基督徒。透過對話我們發現,我們都是人,分享同樣的人性,也透過對話,我們有機會分享彼此的信仰。所以,我個人看對話是一種深沉的、也是非常有意義的一種生活方式,當然也向我自己的信仰挑戰。(大眾鼓掌)

Rev. Nielsen:

I was born in Denmark and grew up in Denmark as a Christian. In the time I have lived, Denmark has changed a lot. Denmark is said to be a Christian country. But during the last thirty to forty years, lots of different religions have come to Denmark. And it's both religions from Middle East-Islam, and religions from Asia-Hinduism, Buddhism and new religious movements. The church in Denmark as such are not used to coping with living in a multiple religious setting. I think that Denmark and Europe are at a turning point in history. And we have to learn how to live with each other in such a society and such a world.
I have personally come here on this three week study tour in to Hong Kong and Taiwan and China to learn from you how you are living together, how it is to live in a society with many religions, and also to learn how the church copes with this situation, what it means to be Christian church in this part of Asia. So I am very glad to be here and learn from your experiences, and I am very overwhelmed with your way of saying welcome to us, and look forward to being together with you.

俞院長譯:

我是在丹麥出生,也是在丹麥長大的基督徒,在我成長的過程當中,丹麥的社會,國家經歷了很多的改變。丹麥本來是一個基督教的國家,但是在過去的三、四十年當中,有很多不同信仰的移民到丹麥居住,有從中東來的回教徒,有從亞洲來的佛教徒,還有從其他地方來的宗教徒,如印度教徒……等等。對丹麥的教會來講,他們還不太習慣生活在這種多種族、多信仰的環境。我想丹麥也好,整個歐洲也好,我們現在進入到一個過渡的時期,就必須要學習住在這樣的社會、世界裡,我們應該怎麼樣的跟我們的鄰舍共處。
我這一次到中國、香港、台灣,對我來講是一個學習的旅程,向你們學習怎麼樣在這裡彼此共同的生活,這個社會裡,多元的宗教怎麼樣彼此相處;也想要學習了解教會在這樣的環境裡,怎樣自處及跟其他的團體相處。所以我很高興今天能來到這邊,剛剛看到大家對我們的歡迎,讓我非常的感動,我來到這邊希望能向大家學習。(大眾鼓掌)

Rev. Nygaard:

We come to you from the old Christian West with much humility. As religious people, we realize that in our culture in the west, a great majority of people have given up on the question, "What is truth?" I think that we can meet together with the common realization that religion is not a number of religious systems primary, but it is the question about what truth is. And how does our realization of what truth is, how is that incorporated into our lives in such a way that we are transformed as moral beings. And relating to this question, I am here to listen to you more than to speak about us, and my Christian religion also respects all these questions.

俞院長譯:

我們是從古老的西方世界來到這邊,我們也帶著深度的謙卑走進這裡。我們來自一個有宗教信仰的國家,但很不幸的一點,在西方有很多人已經放棄了對真理的尋求。我想對我們來講,宗教並不是許多的宗教系統而已,而是到底真理是什麼?更重要的是,我們怎麼樣的去體現真理,在對真理的經驗當中,我們自己怎麼樣的變化,成為一個更有德性、更聖潔的人。我提到這一點,也是表示要跟李老師學,我這樣說,也是我自己以基督徒角度的感受與觀察。(大眾鼓掌)

何牧師:

 (站起來以中文講話)我們今天來到這裡是很難得的機會,你們這樣熱烈的歡迎我們,使我不能不受到感動!特別謝謝李元松居士。對不起,我的中文講得不好,但你們還會聽一點,你們太客氣了!
我第一次來台灣是三十年以前,那時候我住台北,在台北學國語。我家裡的人都跟中國很有密切的關係,我岳祖父母在五十多年前來中國河北的張家口,也就是內蒙古河北連接的地方,做傳道的人。我愛人,也就是我太太,她是在內蒙古出生的,還有我的六個孩子,一個在台灣台北生的,二個在香港,一個在中國,一個在越南,所以可以說是一個國際的家庭。現在我的太太和老二以及孫女住在廣州,所以我家裡的人都是跟中國人有很密切的關係。
現在我們差會的主席已經介紹過我們差會的工作,我們比較有長久的歷史,你們是比較年輕的。你們是一九八九年創立的,有十年的歷史,我們差不多有八十年的歷史。創辦人艾香德博士(Dr. Karl Reichelt) ,他在一九二一年第一次來到南京,他的目標就是專門向佛教徒傳福音,他學過中國孫子的「知己知彼,百戰百勝」。所以為了傳福音,他先學佛教的道理,這樣他會了解佛教徒的思想,這樣他比較容易分享他自己的信仰。
這個是過去的事了,現在台北這邊著重的研究是什麼?我們研究的還是宗教,不管是佛教或是其他宗教的道理,跟不同的宗教對話,跟他們分享我們的信仰。我也是看到李元松居士形容你們自己熱愛真理,是不是?我們也是熱愛真理,我們所信的主耶穌基督祂有一次說:「真理要釋放人」。我們基督徒認為,真理不是一個科學的說法,也不是我們所看到的事、或所看到的桌子,不是這種的真理。我們認為真理是一個人,這個人是像主耶穌基督,我們認為耶穌是真理,所以我們希望大家都會看到這個真理,希望我們追求真理,熱愛的追求真理,這是我們的希望。非常謝謝!(大眾鼓掌)

俞院長譯:

(由於Rev. Harbakk講中文,因此俞院長特為其他四位歐洲朋友翻譯為英文) It is a very rare experience. You welcome us with such a passion, we are deeply moved. We would like to say special thanks to Master Li who welcomes us. I am sorry my Chinese is so poor but you still understand. 
I came to Taiwan thirty years ago. At that time, I lived in Taiwan and learned Mandarin. All my family has a very close relationship with Chinese. My grandfather and grandmother- in-law went to Chanchiakou and Inner Mongolia to be missionaries. My lover, my wife, was born in Inner Mongolia. I have six children, one of them was born in Taipei, two were born in Hong Kong, two in China, one in Vietnam. So our family is an international family. My wife, my son and my granddaughter are in Guangzhou. So our family has a close relationship with China.
Our Director has introduced us to you, the work of Areopagos. You have a history of about ten years and our organization has history of about eighty years. And our founder, Dr. Reichelt, came to Naking at 1921. His goal was to share the gospel with Buddhist particularly. He learned from Sun Tzu: "To know yourself and to know your enemy, you will win all the battles." For the sake of proclaiming the gospel, Dr. Reichelt studied the Buddhist Sutra first. This way makes it easier for him to understand the Buddhist mode of thought, so he can share the gospel with them. 
Dr. Reichelt's work was something in the past. Now the work of Areopagos is to study religion, to study the differences between each religion and to dialog with people of other faiths, so that we can share our faith. This is our purpose. I read from Master Li's introduction of the community, you are a community of passionate truth seekers. We also have a passion for truth. The Jesus Christ that we're believing once said: "the truth will set you free." For us Christians, truth is not just a scientific statement, not just something we can see with our eyes. We consider and we believe that truth is a person, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. For us Christians, Jesus Christ is the truth. And we hope that all of us will have the possibility of seeing this truth, seeking truth with a great passion. This is our hope. Thank you very much.

信佛人

接下來是不是容許換晚輩來講一些話?

俞院長:

李老師,我先聲明一下,因為有一些佛學的東西我不太熟悉,所以我如有翻譯不出來的,請大家給我一些提示。

信佛人:

我應該不太會用到佛學名詞。我首先要講的是,我是一個很卑微、很初學的人,由於我不懂英文,像英文有二十六個字母,我還時常跟人家說英文有二十四個字母,我連一個單字都不認識,在這樣的情形下,我說話竟然要由長輩來為我翻譯,為了這事我首先感到不安。
今天您們這麼多位,對我來講,有一點像天上的天使下來。為什麼有這樣的感覺呢?因為上一次跟俞院長認識,對我而言,俞院長是我真理道上的前輩、長輩,但是在您們還沒來之前,我就聽說您幾位都是俞院長尊敬的前輩和朋友,於是對我來講,像是祖父或天使蒞臨一般。
我剛才聽您幾位的講話,由於我習慣上除了聽人家的講話,更重要的是希望感受對方的心。剛才聽了主席、牧師、還有丹麥幾位朋友的講話,我差一點要掉眼淚,因為我很能感受您們講話背後的心情是帶有真理特性在裡面的,內容非常豐富。如果以平常的習慣,假如我懂得英文的話,我非常喜歡探尋您們內心深處的那些寶藏。
另外,剛才幾位主內弟兄分別提到,上一次我與神學院長俞牧師的對話,其實在我的感覺那不是「對話」,而是「學習」。我很幸運,由於跟俞院長認識,讓我漸漸接觸主耶穌的福音。我雖然是佛教徒,但十幾年來對基督教一直非常好感、非常喜歡,不過卻在跟俞院長認識後,才更加親切,對主耶穌越來越有感情,以前只是理解的認同,感情比較談不上。
尤其是俞院長介紹我看《馬丁路德傳》,裡面有很多讓我感動的地方。我讀書讀得很慢,《馬丁路德傳》目前只讀到三分之一,但已有很多地方感動我。例如,他在萊比錫大學辯論的時候,他提到:真理是不管教皇如何說,或任何權威如何的肯定,乃至是世人都公認它是怎麼樣的,我仍須堅持自己的良心、堅持自己的立場!我一邊閱讀、一邊思考、也一邊在感受他的心情。當讀到這一段時,內心非常激動,因為那種精神也是我所追求和敬佩的。雖然晚他幾百年出生,但是我也有一點點和他一樣的精神。如果哪一天我從內心深處感受到主耶穌的福音才是真理、才是良心的話,那麼我是不會在乎任何佛教徒的看法是什麼,以及釋迦牟尼佛曾經肯定過什麼的。因為重要的是內心真正的感覺。
上次對俞院長說,「拜託不要拋棄我」,是因為在俞院長身上看到同樣的精神,以及覺得自己還沒抓到最後的真理,仍在真理道上前進──只是以後會去哪裡,我沒有預設,也不曉得。
您們來之前,我事先知道您們非常忙也非常累,儘管我有很多話想跟您們談,但是我不敢講太多。
(對同修說)你們怎麼沒鼓掌?因為你們沒有鼓掌,所以他們不曉得我已經講完了。

俞院長譯:

First of all, I would like to say I am a humble man, sort of an unlearned person. I do not understand English, not all of the alphabet. And that I should have President Yu to translate for me, makes me feel sort of unworthy. 
To me, today your presence here for me is like the angels coming down from heaven. Before you came, we had a conversation with President Yu. And President Yu was sort of an elder to me. But now he introduces you, the five guests, who come to us, and you are elders also. So to me, the five of you are sort of like grandpas to me. 
As I was listening to Dr. Jorgensen's words, and then to the four of your speaking, I have a tendency when I listen, I was inclined to sense that from what you have said your words carried with you a sense of truth, and the content is very rich. If I should understand English, I should be very eager to explore into the depths of your experience of truth
You mentioned the last time we had a conversation with the Seminary, for me it was more a learning experience than a dialogue. I feel very fortunate, because of my acquaintance with President Yu, I have had the privilege of coming into contact with the Gospel. Before I came into contact with President Yu, I had good impression about Christianity, but my impression was somewhat rational. But after the acquaintance with President Yu, I began to sense more and more the faith in Jesus Christ. I feel more akin or intimate to Christian faith.
President Yu recommended me to read Bainton's Here I Stand. In that book, as I read it through, in many places it moved me very deeply. I am a slow reader, to this point I've only gone through one third of Bainton's Here I Stand. However, in the portion that I have read, there are several places that moved me deeply. I recall Luther's disputation at Leipzig with John Eck, that he said no matter whether the Pope or what the authority said about truth, it's not final. More important is what my conscience has to say about the truth. When I was reading, I was reflecting particularly Luther's struggle for truth. I am deeply moved and even in a way stimulated that he should have such a passion for truth. Even though I was born five hundred years after Luther, somehow I feel that I also share the spirit of Martin Luther. If I come to the realization that Jesus Christ is the truth and that's what my conscience experiences, I will leave behind all Buddhist belief or authority. I will go for what my conscience experiences. 
Because of this last acquaintance, I have requested President Yu not to desert us. For me, at that moment, I felt that I do not have the final grasp of truth. As for me, I am just a pilgrim on the path to truth, and where my final destination will be, I don't know yet. Before you came, I knew you were very busy and have a very tight schedule, so I dare not to speak more with you. 

Dr. Jørgensen:

It was very moving for me to listen to Master Li. I think you may help me to rediscover a little of who Luther was. Because you know in the western culture, often the question of truth is not so important. It was important at the times of Luther, the Renaissance, there the question of truth was important. Now I have the feeling that my culture, my generation is not so preoccupied with the truth. We have become much more 'pragmatics'. We are asking "does it work?" "Do we get something out of it?" There is a lot of interest in religion and many types of religions in our culture. But it's not always because people are interested in truth. So in that sense, I heard you remind me of something. I do believe that the same thing you are expressing is very important in my own life. 
I am a Christian, but at the same time I find that so much of my life is pilgrimage. I am constantly on the way and constantly searching and looking for where the light is and where the truth is. But then in the midst of my pilgrimage, there is always a small story from the New Testament that comes into my head. It's a story about some of the disciples of Jesus, that after he had died, were walking to Emmaus. They thought that it had all come to an end. So as they were walking and talking, they were filled with sorrow because they thought it's all finished. Then the story goes that suddenly a third person came and walked with them. And he started talking to them to find out why they were so filled with sorrow. Then he started showing them that it hasn't finished all of it. At the end of the day when they came to that little town, Emmaus, they then said to Jesus "come and sit and eat with us". And as he did so and started to break the bread, then they suddenly recognized that it was Jesus. 
That is how my Christian life is. I think very much like you, I struggle to find truth. Sometimes I feel that it's hopeless. Both because of things in my own life, and a lot of the injustice and a lot of the unhappiness in the world, then I think it is hopeless and there is no truth. And I think the world is evil. That's it. I have for a number of years worked with human catastrophes. I worked for an organization that went out to help people when there was a typhoon or an earthquake or a war. And very often, in the midst of that, I thought there can not be any truth. Then this story about the two disciples' walking to Emmaus came into my head. 
And I have come to believe that in my pilgrimage through life, Jesus comes. Then He opens my understanding a little so I understand a little more. Or He may come when I am very unhappy and speak to me and tell me that He's there. In a way, that to me has become truth. Not something at the end of the road, but something that happens on the road as I walk. 

俞院長譯:

剛剛聆聽李老師的講話,我心裡深受感動。我想你剛剛所說的,也在幫助我重新發現路德到底是誰?因為真理的問題在西方的世界、西方的文化好像不太重要;在路德的時代、文藝復興的時代,真理是蠻重要的一個課題。現在我有一種感覺,在我的這個世代、這個社會好像已經不太注重真理了,我們比較變成實效、實用主義者了,有沒有效果好像比什麼都重要!我們能從什麼東西當中得到什麼成效,好像對我們是最重要的。在我們的文化裡,有很多人對宗教有興趣,這些對宗教有興趣的人不見得是他們對真理有關懷。所以在這個意義上,李老師您提醒了我要注意到一件事情,我真的相信李老師您剛剛所表達的,對我的生命也是很重要的。
我是一個基督徒,但是我也發現我的整個生命,我還是在旅途中。在整個旅途中我還是繼續探尋,要去發現哪裡有亮光,哪裡有真理。在我尋求真理的過程當中,新約有一個小小的故事常常進到我的腦海裡。那就是當耶穌被釘在十字架死了以後,他的兩個門徒要步行去以馬忤斯,也就是耶路撒冷城外的一個小鎮上。他們認為他們跟隨耶穌的旅程已經是完全結束了,所以他們在路上邊談邊走的時候,內心充滿了悲傷,因為他們以為耶穌已經死了,什麼都完了。就在他們還在繼續往前走的時候,突然有第三個人過來跟他們講話,那個人就跟他們談,要找出他們心裡頭為什麼那麼悲傷。他就給這兩個人指示,事情還沒有完、還沒有了呢!在日落黃昏時,他們到了以馬忤斯鎮,這兩位跟那第三者說:「你能不能跟我們一起吃晚飯?」他們在一起吃飯時,耶穌就在他們面前剝餅(這就是我們基督教的聖餐)。耶穌在剝餅的時候,兩個人突然認出來第三者原來是耶穌。
這個故事也可以反映出我的基督徒的生活,就像李老師一樣,我在尋求真理的過程當中,我也有我的掙扎。有的時候我也感覺到沒有什麼希望,也因為有一些發生在我生命當中的事情,當我看到世界上很多的不公或者悲慘的事情時,我就覺得這個世界上好像是沒什麼希望,我也感覺到這個世界是蠻邪惡的。我有好多年的時間在做自然災難或者人為災難的救助工作,我在組織裡,常常要去幫助有颱風、地震或者有戰爭的地區。就在那樣的情境當中,我常常會感覺到這個世界沒有真理,在這時,兩個門徒走到以馬忤斯路上的經歷常常進入到我的腦海裡。
在我自己生命的旅程中,我相信耶穌會向我顯現,祂開啟我的悟性使我能夠多了解一點。或許在我非常不快樂、非常低潮的時候,祂就來到我面前向我說話,在某一方面來說,這樣的經驗,就變成我所認識的真理。不是在路的盡頭時才發現,而是還在旅程的行進當中,就已經經驗到了,就已經發現了。

信佛人:

聽了主席這番話,我很感動的是,聽得出來也感受得到,主席所說的話跟主席的心、主席的人,是連在一起的。可惜主席住在地球的另一方,不然的話,我也會請主席不要拋棄我,我很想跟主席學習。不過,我要鄭重、坦率地說,我並不是碰到任何人都這樣講的。這些年來,使我感動的雖很多,但讓我說出「請不要拋棄我」,卻只有主內弟兄!

俞院長譯:

From what you have said and what I have heard, I sense that your sharing, your deep feeling and your person are one. And regretfully, Dr. Jorgensen you are living on the other side of the world, otherwise I would ask you not to desert me, and I would like to learn from you. I must share with you very frankly, I would not say the same thing to just anybody. All these years many people have moved me, touched me, but the only thing I ask people is, do not desert me because of their Christian faith. 

何牧師:

I think sometimes we are like blind people. In the New Testament, in the Bible, we can see Jesus performs many miracles. And He also opens up the eyes of people who were blind so they could see. And I think the reason He did that, He did it in all so that they should see who He really was. Because when we see Jesus as truth, that is a miracle. That's not something that anybody can do when they say "I want to see Jesus". It can only be done when He opens your eyes, so you can see who He truly is. If He does not come, does not open your eyes, you remain blind. 
In my home, I have a copy of an old painting from the 16th-century. It is a very famous Dutch painter who had painted it. You see four or five beggars on a small path walking along. They are all blind. The first one is blind. He has a stick and he is walking alone. The next one holds onto his back, and all the five follow in this way along the path. The painter has painted it, the first one just in the moment that he is about to lose his balance and fall off the road. You can see his desperate expression in his face because he doesn't understand what's going on, and you can see the others will fall along with the first one. But at that moment they don't understand that they are falling off the road. But it is to their own destruction, they are blind because they don't see and they will fall off the road. The painter also painted a church, and it is a beautiful light and with a cross. I think the painter wants to tell us that in here is the light that can make you see and walk on the right path. So they were so close that they were walking right by it but they didn't see it. So that's why they're falling off the road. 
I think sometimes we are very similar to that, all human beings. We don't see the light, we don't see the truth that is right next to us. That can help us to walk on the road which is in front of us. In that sense, we need someone to help us open our eyes, so we can see. Then we will see what Jesus meant as He said that "the truth will make you free''. When we see Him as He truly is, then He will make us free and go with us along the road so we don't fall off to our own destruction. 

俞院長譯:

我想有的時候,我們都像盲人看不見一樣,在新約聖經當中我們看到耶穌也是顯很多神蹟,耶穌也打開許多盲者的眼睛,使他們能夠看得見。祂這樣做,就是要讓人看見耶穌的本相真正是什麼樣子,因為如果我們看見耶穌是真理的話,那個本身就是個神蹟。不是說我們要看見我們就能夠看見,只有祂打開我們的眼睛的時候,我們才能真正看見真正的耶穌是什麼樣,若祂沒有來、沒有打開我們的眼睛,我們還是看不見。
我家裡有一幅十六世紀的複製畫,是一位非常著名的荷蘭畫家畫的。你會看見有四、五個乞丐在狹小的路上行走。他們都看不見,最前面的一個拿著拐杖往前走,後面的每一個人手都按在前面的人的肩上同步行走。這畫家畫頭一個乞丐在走的時候,有一點傾斜,好像快要跌倒,你可以從他的表情上看出,他也相當的緊張,快要倒下去,後面的幾個也是有同樣的表情。在那個時候,他們還不太清楚他們在路上即將要跌倒,因為他們看不見,所以他們會在這個路上倒下去。這個畫家也在這五個盲人的旁邊畫了一間教堂,這教堂有亮光,教堂上有十字架。我想這個畫家的意思是說,教會這邊有亮光,可讓盲者看到的,他們雖這麼靠近,可惜沒看見,所以在行走的時候就傾倒。
我想我們人類也常常就像這畫家在畫裡所描述的景象!有的時候我們沒看見那亮光、真理就在我們身旁,可幫助我們走在前面的正路上,在這方面,我們需要別人幫助我們使我們能看得見。耶穌說:「真理會使你得以自由」,當我們看到耶穌的本相或真相的時候,祂可以使我們安心,我們可以一起行走,這樣在行走時就不會傾倒,甚至跌倒!

信佛人:

剛才聽牧師這樣講,我覺得我要警愓,我怕我是那群盲人前面的第一個。(大眾哈哈笑)所以我雖然是一個宗派的老師,但我都跟他們講,你們雖然稱我是老師,可是其實你們是我的同修,你們都是我的兄弟姊妹。
我時常說,在書本上也這麼寫:「我也是被救的人,我沒有能力救你們。」所以,我總是一再提醒他們,如果他們有比較好的真理道路,我很鼓勵他們去,並請他們學好之後再回來告訴我,也許我也會跟在他們後面走。
佛教是很深邃的,但是我也發現基督教深不可測──這項發現讓我既高興,又有挑戰自己原本信仰的考驗。在內心傾向我有「至高者」的存在,雖然暫時不曉得祂的名字稱作什麼。我是一個很固執的人,我的成長背景,都是用跟人家辯論的方式來探求真理。在書本上和公開演講上,我都說,「只要能夠辯倒我,那你就是我的老師,我就跟你走」,儘管這件事到現在還沒有發生,卻是一個可能性。因此我很誠懇的拜託俞院長,不要拋棄我、不要讓我喪失這個可能性。
也許是一個題外話。當我從文字上看到丹麥對話中心的宗旨時,我非常的高興,因為那樣的對話中心,那樣的風格是我夢寐以求的!在自己和團體成長的歷程,沒有人理性、深入的跟你好好辯,這是一種孤獨。所以剛才主席講的一句話深深打動我的心,「這個世紀的人不太重視真理」。但是我對俞院長之所以感覺好像是自己人,是因為在長輩身上看到那追求真理的精神,以及願意跟真理共存亡的個性。真理的終點站在哪裡,我不曉得,但是只要在過程上發現真理時,我也願意為它生、為它死,因為這是我的榮幸!

俞院長譯:

What you have said sort of alerts me. I am afraid I am the first blind man in the company. I have said, though we are a community of seekers, I have shared with them that though I am their teacher, they are also my colleagues, brothers and sisters. In all the books that I have written, I have shared with them I am also seeking salvation and seeking freedom, I do not have the ability to save you. I reiterate to them that if you find a better path to truth, I will seek with you. This has something to do with why we have said to President Yu "Please do not abandon us". For me, my Buddhist faith is a profound experience, but now I am discovering that Christianity is also unfathomable. 
So this causes me joy but also brings challenge to me. In my inner inclination, I acknowledge the existence of the supreme. Of course at this moment I can't name the supreme. And my inability to name the supreme one is a reflection of my honesty and my real attitude. Inside I think there is prayer that I can find the way to get to know the supreme. But on the other hand, I am a very obstinate person for truth. So this is the reason I ask President Yu not to abandon me or abandon us. In my experience of growth, I always debate with others in order to find truth. In the books I have written or in the lectures I have spoken, I have said if any one can win the argument, I am willing to become his student. But unfortunately, until now I have not found one yet. But there is a possibility that someone can win me over, can win the argument. That's why I have repeatedly said: "Do not abandon me, because there is still such a possibility that you may persuade me." 
Something outside the topic, when I see the dialogue center in Denmark, the way you conduct the religious dialogue, it excites me. In my growing experience or in the experience of this community, we find it very lonely because no one will come to debate with us. So Dr. Jorgensen, the words that you have said also sort of hit my heart. People in this generation does not stress the truth. The congeniality that I feel with President Yu is that we are seeking after the truth, and truth is also a matter of life and death for both of us. Where the final destination is I don't know. But in the way, in the process, if I should find the truth I will live or die for it. I will consider this as my honor.

Mr. Bonde:

Can I ask you how did your search for truth begin?

俞院長譯:

我可不可以請教李老師一個問題,你尋求真理是怎麼開始的?

信佛人:

我總是問「為什麼?」當我知道它是什麼的時候,我就先去做。換句話說,一直問「為什麼」,然後也一直實踐「是什麼」。

俞院長譯:

I began with the question "why". When I know what the truth is, I would like to actualize, to follow the truth. So the process of asking why is always accompanied with the practice of truth. 

Mr. Bonde:

I can recognize myself in this description. As a young man about eighteen, I was struggling with the question of truth. And in a way, I still am. 
One thing turned my life up side down at the age of eighteen or twenty years old. It was a night that I saw my soul searching for God, searching for truth, searching for the supreme-- what you called it. It came clearly to me that if the supreme-so called God - exists or it's really there, it must be the totality. And I am a fragment, a little piece in the whole cosmos. So, how could this little piece make thoughts enough to experience and to understand this totality? At that moment it cames to me that maybe this totality - so call a God -- knows me. It is important not that I know the totality but the totality knows me.
From that moment I think I never gave up trusting the totality. And yet from my context, God has been real and so has his Son Jesus Christ. So in Jesus Christ, I could imagine a little about this totality, God, supreme being. So a way with God I experienced is a way in peace and love, courage to live, but still struggling as a human being, still searching for truth, still trying to understand, still trying to get hold of my heart, still trying to coordinate and cooperate and relate to other people with love, and still experiencing that I can't manage.

俞院長譯:

在你剛剛問『為什麼』然後去實踐『是什麼』的表達當中,我也看見我有共鳴的地方。當我還是一個年輕人,只有十八歲的時候,我也有很多的掙扎,在尋求到底真理是什麼?從某個意義來說,我到今天還是繼續在掙扎。
就在我十八歲,或者二十歲的時候,有一件事情的發生使我的整個生命好像轉向,那是在一個晚上的時候,我就發現我自己真的是尋求真理、上帝,或者是尋求至高者。我突然有一個體現,如果那個至高者或者是上帝存在的話,祂必須是個整體。那我在整個宇宙的整體當中,我只是個小細片,像我這樣的一個小細片,我怎樣能夠思想、能夠了解這麼大的一個整體?那麼就在這樣的時刻我體驗到自己的渺小,感覺到也許那個整體、那個上帝了解我,這對我來講是很重要的,並不是說我這個人、渺小的人,能夠了解整個的真理,而是整個的宇宙、整個的真理,認識我、了解我。
從那個時候,我這個小細片開始能夠信任這個整體,這個整體,或者說上帝在耶穌基督裡頭,祂向我說話,祂向我顯現,當我經歷到這整體、經歷到神的時候,當然我經歷到平安、經歷到愛;但我也必須要說的是,在這經歷當中,我仍然在尋找,仍然在摸索,仍然想要去了解這個整體。但是雖然如此,祂真的就是與我同在,使我繼續能夠信任祂,跟著祂走。

信佛人:

聽了丹麥的弟兄這樣講,我一邊聽一邊享受,我覺得話很平常,意思很深,讓我好像處在跟蘇格拉底或是跟神的使徒交談的氛圍中。尤其讓我感動的是,剛才您提到一句話,「有限的要去了解無限的這種意圖,可能是一種不自量力。」我在福音和馬丁路德傳裡,也經常看到同樣的訊息。而這一訊息:「人是非常渺小、有限的。」對此的充份自覺,我認為是通往信仰的真正基礎!但是我很少在佛教徒身上看到這項自覺與謙卑。
我必須很坦白說,我所瞭解的佛教,它的真精神也是從這裡開始的。進一步說,我之所以感覺跟俞院長好像是同一血緣、來自同一個地方,也是在這項自覺的基礎上。但是在這項自覺之後,所開展的為什麼有的是走佛教的路?有的是走基督教的路?這是我目前還不清楚的地方。
從個人成長的歷程來說,我對佛教的感情比較深,但是現實的經驗,佛教卻讓我失望。相反的,基督教比起佛教對我來說,感情沒那麼深,但是在現實的觀察上,讓我讚美、喜悅的卻更多。這件事帶給我很多喜悅和驚訝,所以我以及目前仍由我主導的這個團體,明天要去那裡,我沒有預設立場。

俞院長譯:

From what the Danish brother just shared, as I was listening I was really enjoying what you said. The way it is expressed looks ordinary, but there is something profound here. So that makes me feel that I am having a conversation with Socrates or with the apostles. There is one point in which you touched me very deeply. That is that the attempt of the finite to embrace, to comprehend, the infinite is something of a false pride. From my reading of the Gospel or the biography of Luther, very frequently I sense the thing you have just shared. The awareness of human insignificance is a very important foundation towards discovering the truth. However, in Buddhist circles I seldom discover this kind of awareness. 
The reason I have an affinity with President Yu is that we have this common awareness of our finiteness or insignificance. One thing I do not understand at the present moment, though we share this common experience of finiteness, is why some find the path to Christianity and others to Buddhism. In my path of growth I have a deep experience in Buddhism, however to my present experience, I have much disappointment in Buddhism. Historically, I have not had a deep experience with Christianity. However, the way that Christianity testifies I feel much more affinity to it, and it cause me to praise and give thanks. This thing brings me joy and impact. So tomorrow, where myself and the colleagues of this community are going, we don't know yet.

Mr. Bonde:

I just want to say I too am not proud of Christianity, how it managed to conduct itself in the world. And I am not proud of myself too, because I don't manage to live according to the teaching of Jesus in my whole life. I share something in common with you because I know that I can't carry the world, I can't carry God, I can't carry Jesus, I can't even carry myself, but I am carried. But in that experience, I also think I experience a sense of strangeness. And this strangeness has to do with hopelessness.

俞院長譯:

我想我也必須要說,我也不以基督教為傲。因為基督教在這個世界上,也沒有去實踐得非常好、非常徹底。所以在這方面,我跟你有類似的感覺。我想我必須要說:我沒辦法把世界揹在我的身上、我沒辦法把上帝揹在我的身上,甚至把耶穌揹在我的身上,但是上帝揹著我。在這個經驗當中,我有一種陌生感,這種陌生感跟無力感有關係。

信佛人:

我回應一下,您這番話又再度讓我驚訝。我們共同地敢於在某一小部份否定自己的宗教,其實正代表我們可能有很多共同的血緣。只是我有一句話比較不禮貌地直接講:如果不是我慢半拍還沒選主耶穌,就是您太早搶拍子找主耶穌了!套句馬丁路德的話:「這是我的立場!」可是我感覺我們非常的親。

俞院長譯:

Your comments again surprised me. I think we have courage to even critique part of our religious system or institution. In a way we seem to share a common blood. If I may say it frankly-if I am not sort of slower in half a bit in following Jesus, then you must be half a bit faster than me in following Him. To recall from Martin Luther: "Here I Stand." We share indeed a lot of affinity between us.

Dr. Jørgensen:

This is very beautiful to be together and listen. But we have known so little about this fantastic community. Could Master Li at least tell us a little now before we leave, about this community and people?

俞院長譯:

我們剛剛的分享,真的很美。但是在我們離開這邊之前,我們很想知道現代禪貴團。是不是也請李老師跟我們客人介紹一下現代禪,讓我們對現代禪這個團體有更多瞭解。

信佛人:

好,我來作介紹。

同修
(溫金柯):


我來作介紹。

信佛人:

你要作介紹?但是你介紹會比我介紹更好嗎?我想我來介紹好了,因為面對這麼多長輩,應該由我作介紹。
向各位報告,一件可喜的事情是:跟我一樣把真理當做生命的人,在這個團體裡有很多人。他們為了跟我一樣尋找真理、實踐真理,有一百多戶人家,從各行各業提前退休,然後從台灣各地全家搬來這裡買房子、租房子,跟我住在一起。您們今天看到這麼多人,大部份都不是請假來的,他們是沒事早就生活在這堛滿C也因為如此,我責任很重大,我不能為了早日擺脫這項責任,便急忙把他們交給俞院長。(大眾哈哈笑)雖然我的態度是開放的,而且如果是那樣的結果,我會很高興。
這就好像一個人身有車票,只要有車票,隨時都可以搭車,可是一旦搭車,票就沒了,所以可以慢慢來。不過,另一方面,我卻怕耽誤了他們,或者說怕變成剛才牧師所說故事堛熔臚@位盲人,因此我懇求俞院長不要拋棄我們這群人,我一再提出這樣的請求。

俞院長譯:

In our community we treat truth as a matter of life, and all the members share this in common. To seek the truth, more than one hundred families moved here from various parts of Taiwan. They even retired earlier to live here together as a community, as truth seekers. All these people you have seen. They are not on leave. They spend their life and their time here. Because of this, I carry a very very heavy responsibility. Because I cannot get rid of this responsibility easily, I cannot now turn this community over to President Yu, though my mind, my attitude, is open. With my openness, even this is the result, I will be very happy. When you have the bus ticket, you can go on a bus. But when you go on a bus, your ticket is taken away. And my concern is that I may disappoint the members of the community because that I am afraid I may be the first blind man in the company. So that's the reason I ask President Yu not to abandon us.

Dr. Jørgensen:

Does it mean that they all live around here? 

俞院長:

Yes!

俞院長:

是不是可以告訴我們一點,你們日常生活有那些活動、學習?幫助我們瞭解一下,你們平常在象山社區一些規律的活動是甚麼?(I am asking about the regular activities, learning and contemplation in the Xianshang Community .)

信佛人:

現代禪是一個很特殊的團體。一方面內心對真理是非常專注的,可是另一方面,卻完全沒有宗教儀式。如果從外表看實在一點也看不出我們是宗教徒。我們側重的,主要是思想的工作:思考、打坐,打坐、思考,以及生活倫理和道德修養。不過整體是有一個中心的,那就是跟我一樣:不斷追尋「為什麼」以及實踐「是什麼」。

俞院長譯:

We are a very peculiar community and a peculiar group. On one hand, we are truly devoted to the seeking of the truth, and for that we retire from different professions to come here to seek the truth. On the other hand, in our community, there is no religious rite like the Buddha's image or paying homage to Buddha or burning incense, and all the ritual things. The main thing that we are doing is contemplation and reflection. The other thing is that we are doing physical exercises, the caring of members for one another, and also observing our ethical moral principles. However, in totality there is a center. The center is that we are always asking "why", but when we have discovered "what", then we will turn it into practice.

俞院長:

Would you like to ask any other question? (有什麼其他的問題?)

何牧師:

Do you all live in this community? (你們全部都住在這裡?)

信佛人:

對!全部住在這堙A這個社區差不多有四百戶,我們這個團體佔一百戶,我們的希望是佔有率二分之一,想住進兩百戶。

俞院長譯:

Four hundred units or families are part of this community. Right now we have one hundred families, but our goal is to have two hundred living in this community.

Dr. Jørgensen:

How do you make money to pay for the expenses? Do they work? They do not live with their family?

俞院長譯:

你們這邊經費怎麼樣維持,是不是大家還需要去工作?

信佛人:

分兩種:約三分之二的人從各行各業提前退休,他們不需要再工作了;另三分之一的人,有的是公務員、有的在教書、有的在上班……,士農工商都有。

俞院長譯:

Two kinds. Two thirds of our members belong to the middle class. They have their own assets or property. The other one third work as university professors, lawyers or journalists, and other professions. 

Dr. Jørgensen:

So they work, in their own profession?

俞院長譯:

他們還在專業工作嗎?

信佛人:

對。有三分之一,比較少。

俞院長譯:

The one third are still working in their professions.

信佛人

可是我覺得真理是最重要的。

俞院長譯:

But I feel that the truth is the matter of greatest importance to us all.

Dr. Jørgensen:

We are interested also hearing how they live, because more and more within our churches, particularly in the West, there is an interest and longing for a community like this, for living together in community. Within part of the churches, within the Catholic churches, they have done so by having monks and nuns live in the monastery. But many of us who come from a Protestant church today are looking for more communities where whole families would live together as you do here. My colleague, Birger, has studied in communities because he wants to develop something like this in a Protestant setting. So maybe, Birger, you should come and study how this was founded. I think in our culture it has to do with our longing for somehow belonging to one another. Individualism has gone too far. So maybe here is an area where we really could learn from you. So maybe we will come back again very soon to learn how you live in community. 

俞院長譯:

聽李老師所說的,現在西方教會堙A越來越多的人,希望能夠生活在像你們這樣的團體裡,大家互相關懷支持。當然像在天主教圈子堙A它們有修道院、修女院這種共修的生活,對復原教、或是新教來講,越來越多的基督徒家庭,他們也聚集生活在一起。我的同事Birger Nygaard他也作這方面的研究--基督徒的團體怎麼樣能夠生活在一起?也許Birger Nygaard他應該來這邊作研究,來向你們學習。我想在我們的文化裡頭,我們跟你們有同感,我們希望追求歸屬感,能夠大家生活在一起。我想在西方個人主義已經走到很極端了。我想在這裡,你們這邊的體驗、經驗是可以做為我們學習的榜樣,也許我們不久以後會再回來,來這邊學習一個團體如何彼此相處。

Dr. Jørgensen:

I think our time is almost finished. 

俞院長譯:

時間大概快到了,我們還有五分鐘,李老師請講。

信佛人:

剛才在主席對我們這個團體讚美的當下,我是蠻慚愧的,因為尚有很多人他們是生活在水深火熱、痛苦的世界中,所以我的理想是:這裡只是一個學校,學成以後他們應該出去,應該去幫助別人。這一點是我深深覺得佛教不及基督教的一個很主要的地方。佛教確實有很多地方需要向基督教學習。
最後我想說,今天我情感上很親切的是,好像碰到故鄉的長輩,好像碰到真理道上的老師一樣,心裡非常高興。我真的不是客氣話,希望主耶穌要差遣你們不可拋棄我們,我祈禱著!聽說唸「阿們」則會心想事成。阿們!

俞院長譯:

When I hear of your affirmation or encouragement, I have to confess something, because many people are living in pain. My ideal is that this community is only a school. After our members have learned from this school, I hope they will reach out to help others. And I think this is something that Buddhism sort of left behind Christianity. In many ways Buddhism can learn from Christianity.
In the end, let me spend one minute. Whenever I come across the elders or people from their home country or teachers in the truth, I feel very happy. I am not trying to be polite, and I pray that God will continue to send you to keep in touch with us and do not abandon us. I heard that when you say "amen", things may come true. For this matter, I would say "amen!"

Dr. Jørgensen:

I am sure that Dr. Yu and Helen and Brother Lui will continue to visit with you. I wish I could invite you to come and visit us in Scandinavia, but it's a bit far away. You never know, one day maybe, Master Li, you would come and see me. So if I invite you one day, would you come? In the meantime we want to thank you so much, not just for your hospitality but for being a human being. 

俞院長譯:

我相信俞院長還有鄭姐妹、呂弟兄,會常常來拜候你們。我們也很想邀請你們來北歐訪問,雖然路程有一點遠(全場哈哈笑)。很難講,說不定有一天李老師會到挪威來見Jorgensen博士。如果,有一天我邀請你的話,你會不會來挪威?(全場哈哈笑)同時我們要特別謝謝李老師和貴團對我們的接待。不只是款待而已,我們在這裡真的能夠有人性的交流與溝通。

俞院長:

我也代表我們神學院謝謝李老師和貴團。我第二次回到這邊,每次回來都是一樣的親切,能夠面對面的交談交通,這是人生的一大樂事。像我上次所說的,每次有這樣機會,都是上帝給我們的特別的禮物。我在這邊要特別謝謝李老師對我們的接待。(全場掌聲不斷)

信佛人:

剛才主席邀我去挪威,我受寵若驚。

俞院長譯:

When you just expressed your invitation, I felt honored by surprise.

(二個小時對談結束)


〔附錄〕

信佛人敬覆北歐Areopagos總會主席


敬愛的 Areopagos總會主席 Dr. Knud Jørgensen:

  剛收到您的來信,讀完之後,我同樣也深深感動,淚水在眼眶堨朝遄K…。您信中所說的,非常奇妙,竟完全也是我的感想。十四日和您們的會面與交談,是我人生中難以忘懷的一次美好經驗!內心不由得湧動著對「至高者」的感恩和驚歎!人可能相處一輩子彼此都不認識對方的心,卻也可能一面之緣、一席之談而宛若相知相交千百年——這樣的事,竟然發生在我身上?讓我忍不住由內心連喊數聲「阿們!」

  當日曾對您說:「可惜我不懂英文,否則我真想到歐洲去找您們,並懇請您們千萬不要拋棄我。」今天最大的心情還是這樣。我多麼想和您們再見面、和您們再好好深談宇宙人生的道理!

  多麼想念遠方實踐真理、奉獻真理的好朋友、好弟兄啊!願我們真的有再重逢的機會,願我們彼此都能在至高者的眷顧下,終於獲得一切的滿足!阿們!

現代禪信佛人 敬覆
2000年11月21日



信佛人敬覆挪威神學家
Rev.Lars Nielsen和Rev.Birger Nygaard


敬愛的 Rev. Lars Nielsen 和 Rev. Birger Nygaard 閣下:
  
  您們兩位平安!

  我很幸運不久前才收到 Dr. Knud Jørgensen的來函,兩天前和今天又前後收到您兩位真摯的問候。儘管只有一面之緣,可是我們心靈的距離竟是如此相近,這真是人間的美景,多麼奇妙啊!

  我和您們一樣,深深為當天的交談回味不已。確實如 Rev. Birger Nygaard 所言,如果當天我們有更長的時間,那就好了,因為可以更廣泛傾聽和分享彼此的生活經驗與信仰。如今,當天的氛圍只在回憶和懷念中。

  由於我身體不好已經有一段時間了,最近更加無法使用大腦思惟,暫時只能用這封簡短的信,以及函末附上敬覆給 Dr. Knud Jørgensen的信,用以回覆遠方真理道上的摰友。相信主內弟兄您們,必然會悲憫寬容我的失禮。

  中華信義神學院俞院長和我都樂見將當日交談的內容,如實、原本地刊登在雙方的網站上。我除了期待這些內容公佈於世,更期待我們真的有機會、有更充裕的時間再度面對面促膝深談。阿們!

現代禪信佛人 敬覆
2000年12月7日
英文網址: http://www.modernchan.org.tw/english/
電子信箱: mcs@modernchan.org.tw


義學與修證並重,方能為中國佛教注
入活水源頭,延續漢傳佛教之慧命。

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